138 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Right now there is only one option for ECM in this game. It's called Angel ECM, and you can read about it here:
http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

As you can see, it completely blocks guided missile locks and target sharing for all Mechs within 180 meters of the Angel ECM-carrier. Angel ECM is a highly-advanced offshoot of Guardian ECM, which is not currently available in MWO. (For some reason, PGI decided to label Angel ECM as "Guardian ECM" in the game GUI, but let's just ignore that typo for now)

Angel ECM has caused many headaches in balancing this game. Due to the lack of canon counters for this highly advanced piece of equipment, PGI has been making lore-breaking tweaks to other equipment and weapons such as making Beagle Active Probe a hard-counter to Angel ECM (with no logical explanation as to how), causing PPCs to temporarily disable Angel ECM if you hit an Angel-carrier, etc.

Just to show you how disruptive Angel ECM is to game balance:

"When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area."

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To be honest, I think the game would benefit greatly if Angel ECM was temporarily removed from the game inventory, and replaced with Guardian ECM. You can read about Guardian ECM here:
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

As you can see, Guardian ECM does not create a targeting-proof bubble around the Guardian ECM-carrier. You can still acquire LRM and StreakSRM locks on Mechs with Guardian ECM equipped, or within the Guardian bubble. It also can block the Beagle Active Probe from providing advanced targeting information, since electronic countermeasures are designed solely to interfere with sensor packages.

This set of properties makes good sense - Guardian ECM lets an LRM- or StreakSRM-carrier still obtain LOS Locks, but cannot share a Teammate's lock. Also, it performs a perfectly logical task of interfering with Advanced Sensors (instead of the completely illogical situation where advanced Sensors can somehow magically disable an electromagnetic interference transmitter).

Perhaps we should change this and make Guardian ECM available as an in-game item and see how that reduces balancing problems. If we derestricted the number of Mechs that can mount ECM, then our current ECM-carriers can be treated like proper Combat Mechs again, and the reduction in individual ECM power will be compensated by more prevalent ECM deployment. This will even-out ECM's presence in the MatchMaker (side benefit!).


HERE'S HOW I ENVISION GUARDIAN ECM TO WORK:

Spoiler

Here's how I envision Guardian ECM as working:

- Guardian ECM should reduce over-all detection range by ~25-40% (depending on test results) for the carrier, and those within 180m (6 hexes). If you have BAP, Advanced Sensor Range module, Targeting Computer, or Command Consoles, then you'll have an easier time spotting those cloaked enemies at range.

- A Mech with Guardian ECM, and all friendly Mechs within 180m should not be "sharable targets." Only a Mech with LOS can lock onto them and read their health, see them on the minimap.

- If you are close to an enemy who has ECM, then you can't send targeting info to your teammates (you can't share your locks with anyone).

- A Mech with Guardian ECM can cancel the nearest enemy Beagle Active Probe's function (within 180m, of course).

Exceptions are if you have BAP, NARC, or TAG.

(Side note: I think that a deployed NARC Beacon should make a target illuminated and lockable to anyone on the team if the NARC'd target is in the open with no ECM protection or even friendly LOS. A NARC beacon is a little transmitter, so nobody on your team should even needs LOS to target that guy.)

- A NARC'd target in a Guardian ECM bubble should follow normal targeting rules (as if NARC and ECM canceled and he wasn't in ECM or had a NARC beacon on him). The transmitter should compensate for the reduction in Lock times/ranges normally offered by ECM protection, and vice versa. So, someone would still need LOS to get an initial lock on a NARC'd target within ECM bubble, but the target can be shared by anyone as long as someone has both LOS and a manual lock.

- A TAG'd target within an ECM bubble can be targeted as normal with target sharing allowed, assuming the guy with TAG isn't under enemy ECM (because you're relying on him to broadcast data; there is no transmitter on the target, itself).

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Let's touch on a few points that have been brought-up thus far in discussion:

1. "This would increase LRM Spam."

If Guardian ECM was released, then we could probably mount it on more Mechs, instead of just the Chosen Ones. This would reduce LRM spam considerably, since Team-Shared Targeting would be less prevalent.


2. "This would make my ECM Light even worse than it is now compared to FireStarters."

If Angel ECM was replaced with Guardian ECM, then they would not have to withhold quirks and other nice features from Guardian ECM carriers. Guardian ECM would no longer be treated as a "magic boon" and that would allow ECM Mechs to be treated more like normal combat Mechs instead of Jesus-Boxers.


3. "If ECM is so overpowered, how is it that none of the ECM mechs apart from the Hellbringer (and I'd argue ECM isn't the main reason) are tier 1 in the comp meta?"

Most of the current ECM Mechs are gimped because they are treated as "ECM Mechs" in the quirk system, or are just poor combatants in general. When's the last time your healthy Timberwolf was actually threatened by a healthy Commando 2D? Replacing Angel ECM with Guardian ECM would derestrict these Mechs from receiving proper quirks.


4. "Why remove the only information-denial tool we have in the game?"

It's a replacement of a low-population, high effectivity system with a less-effective system that can be employed in larger numbers. Derestricting ECM would let anyone use it, or at least many more Mechs would be able to use it. So you're trading low-frequency concentrated power for diffused power.


5. "Don't you mean that the current system is actually more like Null Sig?"

Null Signature is a system that causes Mechs to retain their heat, preventing you from seeing them them with thermal cameras. So, the ECM we have in-game is not comparable to Null Sig, since you can easily see a Raven 3L with heat-vision (unless you're in Terra Therma :-p )


6. "You'd have to rebalance everything!"

Let's list the affected systems:

- PPCs would not need to disable ECM anymore (an easy fix, minimal programming hours needed).
- BAP would not act as a hard-counter to Guardian ECM, but would rather be countered BY Guardian ECM at close range (another easy fix, minimal programming hours required).
- Team Targeting would have to be slightly modified (instead of blocking ALL targeting like Angel ECM does now, Guardian ECM would only block shared-team-targeting)
- Missile Locks would have to be slightly modified (locks on LOS only if the enemy is within Guardian bubble)


Really,the only thing they'd have to worry about is if/how Guardian ECM will decrease over-all detection ranges and lock times. Right now, detection-range is eliminated completely by Angel ECM, and lock-times are lengthened if you TAG an enemy under ECM. If guardian ECm was employed, then detection ranges might be reduced by 25-40% with Guardian, or something like that, and lock-times are already nicely affected by current ECM rules.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 March 2015 - 01:53 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 08 March 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

That would be perfect.

Let's list the affected systems:

- PPCs would not need to disable ECM (an easy fix, minimal programming hours needed).
- BAP would not act as a hard-counter to Guardian ECM (another easy fix, minimal programming hours required), but would rather be countered BY Guardian ECM at close range.
- Team Targeting would have to be slightly modified (instead of blocking ALL targeting like Angel ECM does now, Guardian ECM would only block shared-team-targeting)
- Missile Locks would have to be slightly modified (locks on LOS only if the enemy is within Guardian bubble)


Really,the only thing they's have to worry about is if/how Guardian ECM will decrease over-all detection ranges. Right now, detection-range is eliminated completely by Angel ECM, whereas detection ranges might be reduced by 25-40% with Guardian, or something like that.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Mad Strike]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

Actually , that's not a bad idea.

[Richard Warts]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Right now there is only one option for ECM in this game. It's called Angel ECM, and you can read about it here:
http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

As you can see, it completely blocks guided missile locks and target sharing for all Mechs within 180 meters of the Angel ECM-carrier. Angel ECM is a highly-advanced offshoot of Guardian ECM, which is not currently available in MWO. (For some reason, PGI decided to label Angel ECM as "Guardian ECM" in the game GUI, but let's just ignore that typo for now)

Angel ECM has caused many headaches in balancing this game. Due to the lack of canon counters for this highly advanced piece of equipment, PGI has been making lore-breaking tweaks to other equipment and weapons such as making Beagle Active Probe a hard-counter to Angel ECM (with no logical explanation as to how), causing PPCs to temporarily disable Angel ECM if you hit an Angel-carrier, etc.

Just to show you how disruptive Angel ECM is to game balance:

"When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area."

_______________________________________

To be honest, I think the game would benefit greatly if Angel ECM was temporarily removed from the game inventory, and replaced with Guardian ECM. You can read about Guardian ECM here:
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

As you can see, Guardian ECM does not create a targeting-proof bubble around the Guardian ECM-carrier. You can still acquire LRM and StreakSRM locks on Mechs with Guardian ECM equipped, or within the Guardian bubble. It also can block the Beagle Active Probe from providing advanced targeting information, since electronic countermeasures are designed solely to interfere with sensor packages.

This set of properties makes good sense - Guardian ECM lets an LRM- or StreakSRM-carrier still obtain LOS Locks, but cannot share a Teammate's lock. Also, it performs a perfectly logical task of interfering with Advanced Sensors (instead of the completely illogical situation where advanced Sensors can somehow magically disable an electromagnetic interference transmitter).

Perhaps we should change this and make Guardian ECM available as an in-game item and see how that reduces balancing problems.

Derpies is a highly infectious desease, please keep it to yourself.

[Pjwned]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

That sounds like even more of a reason to tamper with it actually.

[stjobe]

Point of order: Neither Angel nor Guardian ECM blocks missile locks. Angel blocks Streak guidance, but they can still be dumb-fired at an Angel-equipped target.

Guardian:
Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.
...
Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.

Angel:
Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.

Edited by stjobe, 08 March 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

stjobe, on 08 March 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Point of order: Neither Angel nor Guardian ECM blocks missile locks. Angel blocks Streak guidance, but they can still be dumb-fired at an Angel-equipped target.

Yeah, I know, but MWO prevents dumb-firing of Streaks altogether, so it would effectively block streak-firing given the current Streak Mechanics.

[C E Dwyer]

I thought it was going to be another of those...threads..
But it actually is a valid point, and maybe this is the way to go.

It is vastly inferior to even 20th century ECM systems, which is more like angel, but it makes sense and it would be for better balancing

+1

[Kalo Shin]

This is not the tabletop game, please stop saying we should adhere soley to a tabletop game.

[Eleshod]

Psh and have the firestarters outclass my Raven 3L even harder? Ill pass, LRM spam is still heavy enough ingame with ecm, lurm-pocolypse would begin all over again if they dropped ecm cover.

My proposal, rename guadian ecm to amgel ecm.

Also, balancing in a turn-based tabletop setting for a first person active combat fps is easier said then done.

Edited by Eleshod, 08 March 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Kalo Shin, on 08 March 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

This is not the tabletop game, please stop saying we should adhere soley to a tabletop game.

This thread has nothing to do with "adhering to a TT game" but rather is a suggestion that we remove one piece of equipment and replace it with another in order to improve the quality of gameplay.

Eleshod, on 08 March 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

Psh and have the firestarters outclass my Raven 3L even harder? Ill pass, LRM spam is still heavy enough ingame with ecm, lurm-pocolypse would begin all over again if they dropped ecm cover.

If Angel ECM was replaced with Guardian ECM, then they would not have to withhold quirks and other nice features from Guardian ECM carriers. Guardian ECM would no longer be treated as a "magic boon" and that would allow ECM Mechs to be treated more like normal combat Mechs instead of Jesus-Boxers.

Also, if Guardian ECM was released, then we could probably mount it on more Mechs, instead of just the Chosen Ones. This would reduce LRM spam considerably, since Team-Shared Targeting would be less prevalent.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 March 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

I can see where you are coming from PP but I don't think it would enhance EVERYONE's gameplay. It would enhance streak and lrm user's experience which I'm not 100% sure is a good idea.....

[Vassago Rain]

It's funny to me that this is still brought up like 3 years later, and by someone who used to give me flak for complaining that the game should be better.

But seriously, they're not gonna overhaul it. It probably wouldn't take a lot of time to remake the whole system, but just like how artemis still decrease lock-on times for streaks at no weight cost, ECM and all its bandaids are a feature.

If you guys are so worried about bad systems, why not bring up actually broken things, like the terrain system, mechs teleporting when they get anywhere near each other, jumpjet animations providing huge increases in durability, that whole '400 meter draw distance in a cryengine game'-thing they've got going, MWO's LoD's being black and grey blobs, the reliance on red doritos to do anything, seismic still being a wallhack, CW still having absolutely no development 80 days into 'beta,' CW being built upon flawed foundations that led to massed zerg rushes (this can't be fixed unless they remake the whole thing, by the way), and so much else?

I know why you do it, though. It's easy. The other things aren't easy.

[GeneralArmchair]

The current ecm isn't like angel ecm. It is more like some kind of magical aoe null signature system

[Variant1]

when highlanders fly

[Richard Warts]

Kalo Shin, on 08 March 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

This is not the tabletop game, please stop saying we should adhere soley to a tabletop game.

+1

In regards to the OP I would like to say that I'd be willing to try out the proposed changes for a trial period if only to prove that it would lead to another LRMaggedon.

[Middcore]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012 has been a blatantly overpowered JesusBox since December 2012

FTFY.

Seriously, it's embarrassing they haven't done anything about ECM yet. It is the one and only piece of equipment in the game (besides maybe double heat sinks, but at least everybody can get those) were taking it is always better than not taking it if you have the option. If you have a 'mech that can carry ECM and you don't carry it, you are objectively doing it wrong and handicapping yourself and your team. It has no drawbacks and no tradeoffs. In short, it is a whole lot of things no piece of equipment should be in a game that even pretends to strive towards balance.

But PGI won't touch it. Why? Well, my theory is that they think its very existence allows them to claim they've delivered on "Information Warfare" and if they nerf it at all it will become too obvious how thin that whole aspect of the game really is. (As if it's not already obvious enough. "Information Warfare 101: Do you have more ECM 'mechs than the enemy? If yes, you win at Information Warfare. Congratulations!")

[Davers]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

That would be perfect.

Let's list the affected systems:

- PPCs would not need to disable ECM (an easy fix, minimal programming hours needed).
- BAP would not act as a hard-counter to Guardian ECM (another easy fix, minimal programming hours required), but would rather be countered BY Guardian ECM at close range.
- Team Targeting would have to be slightly modified (instead of blocking ALL targeting like Angel ECM does now, Guardian ECM would only block shared-team-targeting)
- Missile Locks would have to be slightly modified (locks on LOS only if the enemy is within Guardian bubble)


Really,the only thing they's have to worry about is if/how Guardian ECM will decrease over-all detection ranges. Right now, detection-range is eliminated completely by Angel ECM, whereas detection ranges might be reduced by 25-40% with Guardian, or something like that.

I would rather get rid of Missile Locks and buff LRM's direct fire ability, with indirect fire using the Battle Map a la WoT.
Not sure how to implement SSRMs without invalidating regular SRMs (especially for Clans).

[Felicitatem Parco]

GeneralArmchair, on 08 March 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

The current ecm isn't like angel ecm. It is more like some kind of magical aoe null signature system

The current system does not block IR Sensors (heat vision) ... so it's not a Null-Signature system. Null-Sig causes a Mech to retain heat so you can't see it with infrared cameras.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 March 2015 - 12:49 PM.